[meta] 5.14 or, Heaven Has a Eugenics Program

[vanitashaze]

Well, it was definitely the grossest of Supernatural episodes so far - French Fry Guy and Cannibalistic Couple, I am looking at ya'll - but I am happy to report that it was not nearly as dodgy as ticketsonmyself had feared. No onscreen dubious consent or unwanted sexual aggression / sexual assault! YAY. (That is a seriously weird thing to be saying "YAY" about, but this is Supernatural. And, really, that's kind of sad.) There were parts I liked: Castiel, the morgue guy, and surprisingly, CUPID, who was massively cute and reminded me of my grandfather, only, you know, more naked and histrionic. I also liked how they dealt with Sam's blood addiction - it was a problem, yes, but he knew it was; they've moved past denial into acceptance - though really, I'm glad it came back at all. YAY CONTINUITY. Which brings us to...

The Jimmy Thing.

Personally, I think Castiel was lying, or meant it in a "this body has these urges left over from its previous inhabitant" way, for several reasons. For one, as karabou pointed out, I'd like to think it's a body reaction, like a sense memory, because why in the world would someone/thing resurrect Jimmy's soul along with Castiel? It doesn't make sense! Also, upon rewatch, I agree with trinityofone when she points out that Cas was lying—to himself or Dean or both—about it being Jimmy's craving. I mean, just look at his face in that scene. He looks down, looks away. That is not a truthful angel. That is a guilty/worried angel. Cas freaked out about stumbling down the road towards humanity*? Fine. I will buy that. Because the alternative - that Jimmy is still in there - doesn't make sense, and really, is just too horrible.

On the other hand - the John/Mary revelation? EW EW EW EW. That's just creepy on so many levels**. And awful for all of the Winchesters - for John and Mary, and for Sam and Dean. So much of their lives is based on the fact that John and Mary loved each other. They've had that love - obsessive, destructive love, but strong - to depend on throughout their lives, and now they've found out that they never even had that.

*Why is everyone so gleeful about the prospect of Castiel turning human? It's not like we're a treat. I mean, come on. Think about what you'd feel like if you learned that you were slowly, inexorably becoming a monkey. THIS IS NOT A GOOD THING.

**Though it does raise some interesting points about what love is. After this episode, can we still say John loved Mary? I would say we could. And for that matter - to what degree do Cupids' marks last? Is it an initial spell of attraction that wears away eventually, so that Cupids are matchmakers in the traditional sense, or does it last until death?

Comments

[mithrel.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I also figured it was the body craving food, since it’s 99% certain Jimmy’s gone. It might also be that Cas himself is actually craving it, but I think that’s less likely.

I can see your point about the humanity thing (especially given 5x04 *shudder*) and really, Cas isn’t human, he’s an angel. I’m not sure what I like about it, except he’s less alien now (on the other hand, his alienness is a big part of his appeal, so I dunno).

I would think that it’s impossible to create love. Physical attraction, yes, infatuation, yes, but not love. I think at best cupids can nudge it along, create the opening for something more permanent. From what we saw in 5x13 Mary did love John, and for all her protestations about not being able to leave him because she’s pregnant, I don’t think she’d have left him anyway. And John underwent a fundamental personality change after Mary’s death, so it’s obvious he loved her.

pointless philosophical discussions ftw.

[vanitashaze.livejournal.com]

But then you get into the whole debate of what love is. For instance, the chick in the episode about the wishing well. Was she in love? How do you define it? What's the difference between love and infatuation? And if love can be caused by supernatural influences, like the magic coin, then the fact that Mary and John loved each other during the events of 5.13 isn't proof of anything, since they were by that time already "under the influence", if you'll pardon the pun.

Re: pointless philosophical discussions ftw.

[mithrel.livejournal.com]

I don't think the woman in the wishing well ep was in love, since I don't believe love requires you to sublimate your own needs to the other person's desires. That was obsession and codependence at best.

I think that what he did was move the enmity aside for awhile or cover it up and give them a chance to become friends/lovers.

[redfairie19.livejournal.com]

I definitely think John loved Mary and vice versa. I prefer to believe it was less of a "Here, let me hit you with my love potion arrow" and more, "If we get these two people in the same room, that shit will happen naturally." They never said it was forced, just that they had to make sure it happened, which means I can stay in my happy place of true love despite the preordained crapola the Cupid spouted.

ETA: And yes, to the Jimmy thing. I was trying to reconcile the whole thing and those are some great explanations that I can get behind.

[vanitashaze.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I suppose that could work. Willful ignorance = the way to go, with this show! (I'd really like to believe that's what happened, but the motto of this show seems to be that nobody gets a reward, and good things are just springboards for bigger bad. To be honest, I'm not sure how the writers are going to be able to dig themselves out of this huge, pessimistic pit they've dug. Like, can any ending really be triumphant with all the bones and ruins along the way?)

[mithrel.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Kripke has said that "this is the most optimistic season yet," and maybe it is insofar as Sam and Dean aren't estranged anymore. Otherwise, not so much. I'm really hoping we get an actual solution, rather than a (perhaps literal) deus ex machina.

[ticketsonmyself.livejournal.com]

No onscreen dubious consent or unwanted sexual aggression / sexual assault! YAY. (That is a seriously weird thing to be saying "YAY" about, but this is Supernatural. And, really, that's kind of sad.)

Yeah. Well, that means I might watch this one, whoo! Unless this episode is anything like "Wishful Thinking," in which case no.

[vanitashaze.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure. On the one hand, I don't think it's nearly as bad as "Wishful Thinking"; on the other, much the same thing happens, or was reported to have happened, except that it happened to two people by means of an outside party, not one person putting the other under influence for the purpose of having sex.

[ticketsonmyself.livejournal.com]

Wow, as soon as I saw your comment, how did I guess Ben Edlund wrote "My Bloody Valentine"?? Because he likes to write charming schlubs who rape people by magical means. Or, well, that's "Wishful Thinking." (In which the gender issues ended up staying unaddressed by the text, though it came close. So close, yet so far!) Hm, from the recap I just read it looks like there was only the one reference to John and Mary - and then Dean punches Cupid, which... is almost like an acknowledgment by the text that Cupid Making It Happen is a bad thing? Almost? I dunno. Anyway, thanks for the clarification; what with that and the major cannibalistic grossness (ew) I think I'll skip this one.

[vanitashaze.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I don't think you're missing much, except a comical (and somewhat enjoyable) Cupid. But, yeah. In the text it's pretty obvious that the celestial roofies were A Bad Thing, Indeed.

Ben Edlund was the one who wrote "Wishful Thinking"? Ew. I actually had a little bit of respect for him as a writer before finding that one out.

[ticketsonmyself.livejournal.com]

I guess Sam didn't get it. Looks like a year of being jerked around by Heaven's agents helped make a difference here for Dean's reaction? Maybe.